A Conservative aide who described the government's Rwanda policy as "crap" was doing so for "dramatic effect," James Cleverly has said. James Sunderland, a Tory candidate and Mr Cleverly’s parliamentary private secretary, asked if anyone has their phones on before making the remark, in a leaked recording obtained by the BBC and published by the Labour Party. Mr Cleverly told Trevor Phillips that Mr Sunderland was “very supportive” of the policy. “He was saying that the impact, the effect, is what matters.” Mr Cleverly added: “He did it clearly for dramatic effect to grab the attention of the audience."